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Month: August 2022

Joanna Lannister: a dream or a clue

Posted on August 26, 2022August 9, 2023 By lateandlazybutterfly
Joanna Lannister: Speculation about her purpose

We have always been told that Lady Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Tyrion, but then there is this dream sequence. (Obviously this is a fan theory, so spoilers everything ASOIAF)

That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father’s corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier. “Sister?” he said. But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes. “Sister,” he said, “what would you have of me?” His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe. “I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?” Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long . . . “Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.” “Who are you?” He had to hear her say it. “The question is, who are you?” “This is a dream.” “Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.” One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” “I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don’t leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she’d left them long ago.-AFFC Jaime VIII

Now, I don’t think that there is anything strange about Jaime dreaming of his mother. Or at least I wouldn’t If it weren’t for the fact that she goes out of her way to point out his lack of a hand.

This particular dream sequence takes place a while after Jaime’s funeral vigil.

At that particular time, Jaime was so exhausted and sleep deprived that any conversations he had might not completely register with his brain. Though I must admit that the likelihood of hallucinations was also increased. The fact that, rather than seeing Jaime hallucinate his mother’s presence at his father’s bier, which would not have been out of place, we see him dream about that day after some time has passed. That is suspicious to me. Converting a memory into a dream that takes place much later could be a way to disguise a scene that would have given too much away. The reappearance of reportedly dead characters is also very common throughout a Song of Ice and Fire. Joanna Lannister being alive could very well be possible, all things considered.

Of course, if she really is alive and well, the real question would be: What is the narrative purpose of Joanna Lannister in the story? These books are already quite long, so why waste pages on a character that does not add something vital?

1. The false myth of the great Tywin Lannister

The first option that I can think of would be the continued unraveling of Tywin Lannister’s myth, as that man valued his reputation and that of his house more than anything. That he died with a whore in his bed certainly means that Cersei’s belief in her father’s love and devotion to her long dead mother must be questioned.

Of course, the obvious proof of Tywin and Joanna’s less than happy marriage has been here all along.

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?” “The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.” Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.” -A Storm of Swords Tyrion I

Tywin’s persistent refusal to consider Tyrion as his heir (or son) must be noted. It does not matter whether this rejection is motivated by a willful denial of a child he considers his greatest humiliation or by his sincere belief that Tyrion is not his son.

Either way, every time he rejects Tyrion, he automatically questions Joanna’s fidelity. We don’t know when he came to this conclusion, or whether there is any truth to it, but it certainly means that things turned sour in their marriage. Was he so unable to accept Tyrion as his son that he forsook his wife? Was their marriage ever a love match?

Remember, Tywin’s father Tytos was still alive when he wedded Joanna and legally, he could have been the one to arrange his son’s marriage, as he did for his daughter Genna. Which automatically invalidates the following statement.

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father’s coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, “for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man’s leavings.” –A world of Ice and Fire Aerys II

There is some indication that Tywin was happy in his marriage, but of course this does not tell us anything about Joanna’s feelings. And any statement of Maester Pycelle, Tywins’ most devoted fan, should be regarded with some skepticism.

“Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor,” Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, “and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!” -A world of Ice and Fire Aerys II

As Queen Rhaella exiled Joanna from court not long after her marriage to Tywin their marriage would have been a long-distance relationship, as Tywin’s duties would have kept him in King’s Landing for most of the year. This probably would not help their marriage.

“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. -AFFC Jaime V

If Tywin and Tyrion are truly so much alike, regardless of the degree of their relatedness, it could mean that they react to a betrayal similarly. Ask Shae what that means. Tywin’s fear of kinslaying (Joanna was still his cousin) could have been enough to save her life, in this scenario, but every other form of abuse would still be an option. Lord Tywin is not known to be gentle or forgiving and the more he truly loved her, the worse his reaction.

A divorce would have brought too much shame to House Lannister. Tywin would not choose this option. And Joanna would not have this choice. This means either Joanna left, fearing Tywin’s anger, (though it would not be easy for a woman to flee so shortly after childbirth) or he quietly exiled her from their home, possibly by sending her to the silent sisters, as he has done with other inconvenient women. There is also the suspicious timing of House Martell’s visit.

A queer time to come visiting. His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys’s Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” -A Storm of Swords Tyrion V

Did Lady Joanna request assistance from her old friend, the princess of Dorne. Was the timing of her pregnancy suspicious enough to endanger her? Joanna visited Kings Landing (and therefore Aerys) at some point in the year before Tyrion is born, that much is known. But Tywin was there as well. Did Aerys drunken remarks finally trigger Tywin to the point that he no longer trusted his wife (and made her life hell)?

Even if the Martells arrived too late to meet Joanna, this could still be a hint that she may have reached out to others or made preparations to leave. Joanna would have ruled the household at Casterly Rock during her husband’s long absences. Surely there would have been someone among her servants and relatives who would have been willing to assist her. All of this requires her to be somewhat prepared, though. Still, if she truly knew the man under the armor, she would have known his wrath too.

While all of this is largely speculation, Joanna’ survival undermines Tywin’s reputation in any case.

2. A+J=J+C

While the revelation of Joanna’s survival could have a profound effect on Jaime, it is unlikely to change his course in any way or have any particular effect on his personal arc. There is another theory, though, that would affect his sense of identity. The often-discussed A+J= J+C.

If the world of Ice and Fire is any indication, rumors about an affair between Joanna and Aerys must have been far spread. Otherwise Yandel, the Lannister lickspittle author of A World of Ice and Fire would not mention them at all. He only does so in a futile attempt to dismiss them.

Ironically, Jaime and his siblings may be the only ones who haven’t heart them, for the same reason that the Stark children have not heard about Ashara Dayne. Few people would want to tell their bosses children unsavory rumors about their parents.

Theories that involve the parentage of this character or that, are difficult to prove or disprove, as there usually aren’t many witnesses. In the absence of paternity test kits, Joanna Lannister would probably be the only truly reliable source of information when it comes to the parentage of Jaime, Cersei…and also Tyrion. So, if any of these theories are meant to be true, she needs to be alive in order to prove them.

3. Trouble with the faith militant uprising

The third option involves Joanna’s apparent position as member of the faith (or as someone who is pretending to be one). Cersei is not on good terms with the current High septon. Should Jaime return to Kings Landing, he’ll be drawn into the conflict. If either of them had access to knowledge or assistance from an insider, it might help them at a crucial time. It is unlikely that Joanna Lannister is currently close to the High Sparrow and his militant and radicalized followers, though.

4. Another valonqar…

There is another potential consequence of Joanna Lannister’s continued survival: She could have had more children. And thus, there would be more potential valonqars, for Cersei. It has already been discussed that the Valyrian language knows no gender, thus any new half-brother or half-sister would do.

The same for Inkpots, whose true name appeared to be Tybero Istarion. “Tybero?” said Tyrion. “That sounds almost Lannister. Are you some long-lost cousin?” –ADWD Tyrion XII

Tyrion seems to think that any name beginning with Ty- could be a Lannister name. While he is likely just joking around, it should be noted that most occurrences of such names are indeed within house Lannister, or among the admirers and lickspittles of this house. While I don’t think it that strange for a foreigner such as Tybero to have such a name, Tyene Sand is another matter.

And what of me?” asked Tyene. “Your mother was a septa. Oberyn once told me that she read to you in the cradle from the Seven-Pointed Star. I want you in King’s Landing too, but on the other hill. The Swords and the Stars have been re-formed, and this new High Septon is not the puppet that the others were.-ADWD The Watcher

Tyene Sand was born approximately three or four years after Tyrion Lannister. Her mother has been described as a Septa and not as a silent sister, but this distinction means little. The people of Westeros have no means to identify a traveling stranger, and any woman that dresses and prays like a Septa would be treated as such by the locals. Attending Tywin Lannisters funeral in Kings Landing would bring Lady Joanna (if it is her) close to many past acquaintances, thus the added layer of anonymity that comes with a silent sister’s veil would be necessary. She would need to permanently disguise her identity anyway.

Why would Joanna Lannister have any children with Oberyn Martell? (We don’t really need to explore Oberyn’s motivations in this scenario, or do we?) Who knows. Oberyn’s mother has been noted to be a close friend to Joanna, so they might have been in contact. And he can be very charming…

Tyene was raised by her father, though, and is currently headed towards King’s Landing pretending to be a member of the faith. Meanwhile, Cersei is constantly surrounded by Septas and novices, none of whom she knows well. Of all the many potential Valonqar candidates Tyene is the only one who combines the murderous intent towards Cersei (and her kids) with the necessary skills and the easy access. Moreover, Tyene’s preference for poisons means she is familiar with the tears of Lys…

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” – AFFC Cersei VIII

Of course, Tyene’s Septa mother could simply originate from a lesser branch of house Lannister, but what would that add to the story?

Snow (the Show) or the problem with Bran 2.0

Posted on August 17, 2022August 9, 2023 By lateandlazybutterfly
Another review of the show ending

A new show has been announced, starring Jon Snow…

Not much is known about it beyond the fact that it is supposed to be a continuation of Jon Snow’s story after the events of season eight somehow…

I don’t know anymore than anyone else, but I’m allowed to speculate wildly.

Personally, I think that watching Jon Snow patrol amongst the few surviving wildlings whilst traveling across vast areas of abandoned land could probably induce depression in its audience, albeit in a scenic way.

I don’t quite see how any show with such a limited scope would fit within a series that has always been so focused a politics on a greater scale as well the perspectives of many conflicting characters. It would only work if Jon Snow takes his wildlings South to bring down the wall, but that should probably already have happened within the main series.

And if the white walkers were to trouble Jon Snow again, this would carry dark implications about Bran. After all, if he told the truth about their motivation, any surviving Ice person would be compelled to hunt down Bran. In which case they can just walk through the giant hole in the wall in secrecy, bypass the whole north, and build a zombie army once they are near the ruined remains of King’s Landing, climb through more holes and deal with the king directly. Maybe they’ll have to wait for colder weather, but that shouldn’t be so hard. And if the king is so all knowing, he’d know about this threat too.

My weird next option is based on my previous post (that you may have to read because otherwise things won’t make much sense), that revolved around something being very off with Bran. To summarize it there may be multiple explanations to this. King Bran having usurped another, more suitably kingly body such as Jon Snow (dark, I know, but it would certainly explain why his character seems to be not quite there in later seasons) and the season finale being based on Bran’s self-serving interpretation of a vision/dream/prophecy (which would explain the complete lack of any sense or politics) are among them. A combination of these two is also possible. The others being Bran’s tools/allies is also part of it.

Should these scenarios apply, Snow would not really be a continuation to season 8, but a reset to whenever Bran’s plans fall apart or are otherwise revealed. This could be the Hodor moment or Jon Snow’s re-aliving. Or both simultaneously. Would that mean that much of the later seasons would have to be repeated with a mildly different spin? Not necessarily. Flashbacks are a possibility. At the very least, there would be much more politics. And Queen Cersei never made any sense whatsoever…

We don’t know how much information Bran truly has about the future. If he only has prophecies and songs, it won’t be much. Even if Bran truly has access to all information past and future simultaneously, he’d still have to digest all that information, sort through it draw his own conclusions. That takes time, and he might not have it. Not if the children of the Forest are his true enemies.

If the later parts of the show truly represent Bran’s interpretation of a vision/prophecy, it will probably turn out mostly wrong as there is no reason to assume that a young boy would not be fooled by something that seems to fool everyone, especially Melisandre. Interpreting these visions in a way that revolves around themselves, their fears and desires, seems to be a common theme.

The books seem to differentiate between at least two or three types of true (or false) visions. First there are greendreams or dragondreams, both of which seem to include symbolic imagery. Targaryens usually see dragons instead of their human counterparts, while Jojen Reed described his vision of Bran as Winged Wolf. If this was Bran’s vision type, he could have seen a winged wolf on the iron throne and assumed his own victory. But of course, if Jon is half-dragon, he too could fit the description. And Sansa is also associated with Birds/wings…

Melisandre’s visions seem to include real faces as well as symbols, but she too seems to fail at correct interpretations, regardless. We have no way of knowing if these visions were sent by the red god in answer to her questions or by another mage who is trying to guide her somewhere for his own purposes. For all we know these dreams could just be random ripple effects in the planets magical field (not the force, that name is already taken), caused by drastic events or magically powerful people, and received by those who are magic-field sensitive and/or have glass candles.

The third type of sight involves warging into an animal and seeing through its eyes. There may be implications that this can work across vast physical distances …and time too? Though maybe that only works if those animals were connected to the weirwood.net…

Of course, I don’t know what type of vision show-Bran’s journeys to Winterfells past and the tower of joy are supposed to represent. Warging into a past animal and ignoring it to save CGI money???No clue.

If Bran clearly saw a person upon the iron throne, this carries even darker implications, as he might not have seen his own body (that thing is too broken for the heroics he desires) but have simply assumed that it is a body he could take over at some point.

From a storytelling perspective, there are numerous reasons why a rivalry between Jon and Bran would fit. The first outline of the story supposedly already included it, but it was scrapped (are we so sure about that). Think about it. Bran is the boy who would love to climb the wall and fight great battles, and Jon is the one who actually gets to do that. Jealousy could certainly be a factor. Jon is also the one who stays at the wall while his family is out there dying (not exactly his choice, but still). And he’s also said this:

“I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily. – A Dance with Dragons Jon VI

As Bran is apparently a creepy stalker through time, there is no reason to assume he did not hear that. I know that many assume that it is Bloodraven who is spying through the raven, and that may be true, but this doesn’t exclude future Bran. Jon is trying to show a tough facade to his subordinates and trying to hide his doubts. Bran could believe his words, though. There is also that weird conversation:

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”-A Game of Thrones Tyrion II

If Bran was listening to this, he may have believed Tyrion, especially if his resentment towards Jon was already strong. It could also explain show-Bran’s bizarre trust in Tyrion, of all people. At the very least, he would have considered him to be a useful ally in the destruction of house Lannister.

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him. –A Clash of Kings Jon VII

We don’t know what timeline version of Bran is contacting Jon here. On the surface level he seems to help Jon build his warging talents. There is no reason to assume that any version of Bran would not want to give Jon the option of a second life. It must be noted that the death smell here could indicate that this Bran may be at the edge of death, and would therefore try to hatch any plan to give himself another chance at life. And that may require a connection with Jon and/or his body.

Another thing to consider is that Ghost differs from the other direwolves. Jon could hear him at their first meeting despite Ghosts apparent absolute muteness. As many across the internet have speculated, this could indicate him being the direwolf-warg equivalent, in which case Jon may have the option to return to his (hypothetically) re-alived body. (Don’t ask me how, the internet is full enough of theories).This could be the thing that Bran didn’t expect. Ghost’s strong negative reaction here could also foreshadow a conflict between the three of them.

No matter whether Snow takes place in the future or resets to a past moment, I do believe the conflict between Bran and Jon has to be at its center.

Recent Posts

  • Dragonbinder the Hellhorn -a few questions
  • Joanna Lannister: a dream or a clue
  • Snow (the Show) or the problem with Bran 2.0
  • Daenerys Targaryen: Mad or mislearned
  • A tiny theory: The blue rose and house Tyrell

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